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	<title>It Talks--上海魏武挥的博客 &#187; 程序</title>
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		<title>道德？秩序？</title>
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		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 06:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>魏武挥</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[社会与文化]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[秩序]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[程序]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[规则]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[道德]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[李零先生提了一个有趣的问题，说在汽车上有人让座，大家都认为是有道德的表现，而火车上没人让座，也没人说三道四说人心不古。原因在于汽车我让个座，损失小，几站路就下了。火车我让个座，损失大，得好几个小时站着呐。 所以，其实没有无缘无故的道德。 人性既非本善，亦非本恶，而是本私。讲道德对自己要有好处，没好处的话，特别是要有坏处的话，道德就不会有了（只剩下几个不食人间烟火的圣人能坚持）。最近某地打非法运营黑车倒钩事件，就提醒我一点，我再有道德，不明不白的人我也不能让ta上车，即使ta做出一副再不赴医就得死了的样子来。 何故？秩序不保护我啊。 有人戏言，今天这个社会也是路不拾遗的。只不过动机完全不同了。不信你看到钱包捡一个试试？骗子就该来了。 道德的背后其实是秩序。某种程度上讲，儒家并非唯道德论，而是一个制度学派。有汉以前的儒生，不是一帮书呆子，这一点连刘邦后来也意识到把人帽子扔洗脚水里是误解儒生了。儒家的“克己复礼”四个字，说的是要约束自己让自己的行为符合“礼”。礼是什么？和礼貌压根没关系。 礼者，秩序也。周礼就是周朝的秩序，是周公旦做为古代伟大政治家的突出贡献。孔圣人念念不忘的是那个秩序，而不是什么彬彬有礼谦谦君子（虽然他个人喜欢温良恭顺的木纳君子，但对于孔武有力的仲由和喜欢种地的樊须，也就是骂两句了事，没逐人出师门。对于樊须的态度，甚至有论者认为这是孔子尊重社会分工的表现）。礼崩乐坏不是说大家都很野蛮，动辄就是拔拳头打架，而是大家完全不讲秩序了。 儒家要追求的那种君君臣臣父父子子的秩序，是可以再议的。但儒家追求秩序的精神，却是值得肯定的。先人其实是意识到的，有了秩序，才有王道，才有和谐社会嘛！ 世风日下，人心不古的背后是秩序的缺失，并非道德的沦丧。说实在话，今人的文明程度一定比前人高，但秩序二字，未必就做得更好。 最后，要补充的是，秩序、规则不是法律，当然后者属于前者。以法治国，不是说用法律治理国家，而是用规则治理国家。 程序正义，乃是法治的核心和精髓。 UPDATE：一直以来我们把儒家和法家放在对立的角度，许是那个特殊岁月带来的影响吧。但我以为，儒家和法家对于秩序都有共同认识，而有趣的是，兵家便很少讲这个了。虽然动不动就要军法从事，但两军对垒起来，运用之妙，便在乎一心了。 Copyleft &#169; 2010 知识共享署名-非商业性使用-禁止演绎 注意：转载勿改标题！ItTalks -- 魏武挥的Blog (digitalfingerprint:fc4f8fc31f70097eea4b780b13146415) 欢迎 浏览我收集的信息图 关注我的微博 访问我的分享 与本日志可能相关的文章有：一个伦理问题 (13)建立秩序 (6)天威难测 才有皇恩浩荡 (20)脱裤子放屁 (10)规则 (2)<table class="wumii-related-items" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="0"  style="clear: both;">
    
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>李零先生提了一个有趣的问题，说在汽车上有人让座，大家都认为是有道德的表现，而火车上没人让座，也没人说三道四说人心不古。原因在于汽车我让个座，损失小，几站路就下了。火车我让个座，损失大，得好几个小时站着呐。</p>
<p>所以，其实没有无缘无故的道德。</p>
<p>人性既非本善，亦非本恶，而是本私。讲道德对自己要有好处，没好处的话，特别是要有坏处的话，道德就不会有了（只剩下几个不食人间烟火的圣人能坚持）。最近某地打非法运营黑车倒钩事件，就提醒我一点，我再有道德，不明不白的人我也不能让ta上车，即使ta做出一副再不赴医就得死了的样子来。</p>
<p>何故？秩序不保护我啊。</p>
<p>有人戏言，今天这个社会也是路不拾遗的。只不过动机完全不同了。不信你看到钱包捡一个试试？骗子就该来了。</p>
<p>道德的背后其实是秩序。某种程度上讲，儒家并非唯道德论，而是一个制度学派。有汉以前的儒生，不是一帮书呆子，这一点连刘邦后来也意识到把人帽子扔洗脚水里是误解儒生了。儒家的“克己复礼”四个字，说的是要约束自己让自己的行为符合“礼”。礼是什么？和礼貌压根没关系。</p>
<p>礼者，秩序也。周礼就是周朝的秩序，是周公旦做为古代伟大政治家的突出贡献。孔圣人念念不忘的是那个秩序，而不是什么彬彬有礼谦谦君子（虽然他个人喜欢温良恭顺的木纳君子，但对于孔武有力的仲由和喜欢种地的樊须，也就是骂两句了事，没逐人出师门。对于樊须的态度，甚至有论者认为这是孔子尊重社会分工的表现）。礼崩乐坏不是说大家都很野蛮，动辄就是拔拳头打架，而是大家完全不讲秩序了。</p>
<p>儒家要追求的那种君君臣臣父父子子的秩序，是可以再议的。但儒家追求秩序的精神，却是值得肯定的。先人其实是意识到的，有了秩序，才有王道，才有和谐社会嘛！</p>
<p>世风日下，人心不古的背后是秩序的缺失，并非道德的沦丧。说实在话，今人的文明程度一定比前人高，但秩序二字，未必就做得更好。</p>
<p>最后，要补充的是，秩序、规则不是法律，当然后者属于前者。以法治国，不是说用法律治理国家，而是用规则治理国家。</p>
<p>程序正义，乃是法治的核心和精髓。</p>
<p>UPDATE：一直以来我们把儒家和法家放在对立的角度，许是那个特殊岁月带来的影响吧。但我以为，儒家和法家对于秩序都有共同认识，而有趣的是，兵家便很少讲这个了。虽然动不动就要军法从事，但两军对垒起来，运用之妙，便在乎一心了。</p>
<hr /><small>Copyleft &copy; 2010 知识共享署名-非商业性使用-禁止演绎 注意：转载勿改标题！<br />ItTalks -- 魏武挥的Blog (digitalfingerprint:fc4f8fc31f70097eea4b780b13146415)<br><br>

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		<slash:comments>21</slash:comments>
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		<title>天威难测 才有皇恩浩荡</title>
		<link>http://www.weiwuhui.com/2453.html</link>
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		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 05:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>魏武挥</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[TMT乱弹]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[社会与文化]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[正义]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[程序]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[西游记里有三个国王，莫名其妙地得罪了神仙，于是便狠狠受了回苦。 其一，凤仙郡，三年不雨，孙悟空上天探听，得知，由于郡侯（也算是个国王吧）和老婆吵架砸了给玉帝的供品，便受此罚。得知缘由后，摆酒席一顿，便了结此事。 其二，乌鸡国国王被扔到井里泡了三年，还是孙悟空去打听，原来是当初把文珠菩萨扔到水里三天，该有此罚。 其三，朱紫国国王的老婆被妖怪抓走，依然是孙悟空询问，原来是国王当年射杀了神仙的儿子孔雀，受此“拆凤三年”的惩罚。 有趣的是，这三个受罚者，若不是孙悟空这个中介上下奔走，恐怕到了阎王殿都不晓得自己是为何受罚的。总而言之，一句话：天威难测。 也正是因为天威难测，于是得救后便惶恐再三，深感罪孽深重，感激涕淋：如果不是你，我怎么会得救啊！全然忘记了，当年的家破人亡妻离子散便是它一手造就的。 皇恩怎么浩荡起来的？便是这个难测的天威。如果能测了，那就是该的，那就不必浩荡了。 听上去很诡异的逻辑，但在现实中，我们见得还不够多么？ 难测天威之下，继P、F、Y、T四个老外跑边上心神不宁地玩强手之后，我们的饭哥嘀弟啥姐叽妹也刚好凑起一桌很好很强大的麻将了。 BTW，要关注一下孙悟空这个中介的。如果不是难测天威，有他什么事儿？ 注：本文得到《读者原创版》7月号的“我们为什么都想当神仙”一文的启发，在此表示谢意！ Copyleft &#169; 2010 知识共享署名-非商业性使用-禁止演绎 注意：转载勿改标题！ItTalks -- 魏武挥的Blog (digitalfingerprint:fc4f8fc31f70097eea4b780b13146415) 欢迎 浏览我收集的信息图 关注我的微博 访问我的分享 与本日志可能相关的文章有：道德？秩序？ (21)脱裤子放屁 (10)<table class="wumii-related-items" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="0"  style="clear: both;">
    
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>西游记里有三个国王，莫名其妙地得罪了神仙，于是便狠狠受了回苦。</p>
<p>其一，凤仙郡，三年不雨，孙悟空上天探听，得知，由于郡侯（也算是个国王吧）和老婆吵架砸了给玉帝的供品，便受此罚。得知缘由后，摆酒席一顿，便了结此事。</p>
<p>其二，乌鸡国国王被扔到井里泡了三年，还是孙悟空去打听，原来是当初把文珠菩萨扔到水里三天，该有此罚。</p>
<p>其三，朱紫国国王的老婆被妖怪抓走，依然是孙悟空询问，原来是国王当年射杀了神仙的儿子孔雀，受此“拆凤三年”的惩罚。</p>
<p>有趣的是，这三个受罚者，若不是孙悟空这个中介上下奔走，恐怕到了阎王殿都不晓得自己是为何受罚的。总而言之，一句话：天威难测。</p>
<p>也正是因为天威难测，于是得救后便惶恐再三，深感罪孽深重，感激涕淋：如果不是你，我怎么会得救啊！全然忘记了，当年的家破人亡妻离子散便是它一手造就的。</p>
<p>皇恩怎么浩荡起来的？便是这个难测的天威。如果能测了，那就是该的，那就不必浩荡了。</p>
<p>听上去很诡异的逻辑，但在现实中，我们见得还不够多么？</p>
<p>难测天威之下，继P、F、Y、T四个老外跑边上心神不宁地玩强手之后，我们的饭哥嘀弟啥姐叽妹也刚好凑起一桌很好很强大的麻将了。</p>
<p>BTW，要关注一下孙悟空这个中介的。如果不是难测天威，有他什么事儿？</p>
<p>注：本文得到《读者原创版》7月号的“我们为什么都想当神仙”一文的启发，在此表示谢意！</p>
<hr /><small>Copyleft &copy; 2010 知识共享署名-非商业性使用-禁止演绎 注意：转载勿改标题！<br />ItTalks -- 魏武挥的Blog (digitalfingerprint:fc4f8fc31f70097eea4b780b13146415)<br><br>

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</table><h3  class="related_post_title">与本日志可能相关的文章有：</h3><ul class="related_post"><li><a href="http://www.weiwuhui.com/2617.html" title="道德？秩序？">道德？秩序？</a> (21)</li><li><a href="http://www.weiwuhui.com/2379.html" title="脱裤子放屁">脱裤子放屁</a> (10)</li></ul>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>脱裤子放屁</title>
		<link>http://www.weiwuhui.com/2379.html</link>
		<comments>http://www.weiwuhui.com/2379.html#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:52:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>魏武挥</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[社会与文化]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[人治]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[放屁]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[法治]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[程序]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[程序正义]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weiwuhui.com/?p=2379</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[这个标题似乎有点不雅了，不过，重点在于，脱裤子放屁，究竟算不算多此一举？ 大概每个人都有在一个密闭的空间（比如电梯间或车里）碰到别人放屁的经历。如果放屁者肠胃良好倒还罢了，偏偏此人还食有大蒜且最近某事不畅，这个滋味大抵是不好受的。 做一个假设，荒诞是荒诞了，假设这个社会规定放屁者必须要脱裤子，那么，憋不住实在要放的，大概依然是还要放的。但若能憋一下，恐怕也就能憋便憋，熬到厕所再说了。 脱裤子放屁，听上去是很有些搞笑的，但放在商业社会里，那就叫“业务留痕”，谁在什么时候做了什么事，得记录下来，不能一做了事。业务留痕的好处，应该很多人都明白。虽然同样也有很多人抱怨事情做都做了，干吗还要我记录一下，但组织大到一定规模，不搞这一手，是绝对不行的。 千年以上（前536年），郑国有一个人，叫子产，他搞了一个改革，称之为“铸刑书”，也就是把刑书（法律）铸造在金属器物上以供国人知晓。铸刑书的重大意义在于，冲破了秘密刑思想的束缚，让国人都清楚地知道，做了什么不端的事，便需要承担什么后果。 这大概是中国最早的关于“程序正义”的努力了。我们今人看来法律必须被公布是很正常的事，但在千年之上，却是要冲破种种阻力的。因为古人认为一旦刑法公布，会让国人产生规避的心态，那么，国家就不好治理了。 子产的做法，是有些“脱了裤子再放屁”了。杀了人，就上刑场抵命便是，何必再搞个什么“铸刑书”。而后世更进一步的做法就更脱裤子放屁了：公开审判。明明所有人都知道这个人罪大恶极，不杀不足以平民愤，但等一下，三堂会审，控辩舌战，证据确凿后，然后才可施刑。 法治社会的根基之一就是程序正义了。程序正义不仅可以告诉所有人什么事不能做（法之禁止），还能清楚地告诉你如果做了会有什么后果（刑之依据），再告诉你无论什么人承担的后果是大致相当的（人人平等），更进一步的，判断你做了还是没做这个事是有一整套的程序来梳理论证的，最后，还有一点极为重要，那就是“法无禁止即可为”（对人而言），以及，“法无许可不得为”（对政府而言）。 好像这些道理很多人都明白，很多人也都认为天经地义。但我不得不告诉各位，这个社会，不脱裤子就放屁的事情，随处可见得紧。 有太多的莫名其妙的结果和现象，你都无法知道，是按照哪个程序来的，或者，压根，就没有程序。 这就是法治和人治的本质区别：放屁，脱了裤子，还是不脱裤子？ Copyleft &#169; 2010 知识共享署名-非商业性使用-禁止演绎 注意：转载勿改标题！ItTalks -- 魏武挥的Blog (digitalfingerprint:fc4f8fc31f70097eea4b780b13146415) 欢迎 浏览我收集的信息图 关注我的微博 访问我的分享 与本日志可能相关的文章有：春秋无义战 (9)大家一起胡言乱语 (20)道德？秩序？ (21)天威难测 才有皇恩浩荡 (20)<table class="wumii-related-items" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="3" border="0"  style="clear: both;">
    
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>这个标题似乎有点不雅了，不过，重点在于，脱裤子放屁，究竟算不算多此一举？</p>
<p>大概每个人都有在一个密闭的空间（比如电梯间或车里）碰到别人放屁的经历。如果放屁者肠胃良好倒还罢了，偏偏此人还食有大蒜且最近某事不畅，这个滋味大抵是不好受的。</p>
<p>做一个假设，荒诞是荒诞了，假设这个社会规定放屁者必须要脱裤子，那么，憋不住实在要放的，大概依然是还要放的。但若能憋一下，恐怕也就能憋便憋，熬到厕所再说了。</p>
<p>脱裤子放屁，听上去是很有些搞笑的，但放在商业社会里，那就叫“业务留痕”，谁在什么时候做了什么事，得记录下来，不能一做了事。业务留痕的好处，应该很多人都明白。虽然同样也有很多人抱怨事情做都做了，干吗还要我记录一下，但组织大到一定规模，不搞这一手，是绝对不行的。</p>
<p>千年以上（前536年），郑国有一个人，叫子产，他搞了一个改革，称之为“铸刑书”，也就是把刑书（法律）铸造在金属器物上以供国人知晓。铸刑书的重大意义在于，冲破了秘密刑思想的束缚，让国人都清楚地知道，做了什么不端的事，便需要承担什么后果。</p>
<p>这大概是中国最早的关于“程序正义”的努力了。我们今人看来法律必须被公布是很正常的事，但在千年之上，却是要冲破种种阻力的。因为古人认为一旦刑法公布，会让国人产生规避的心态，那么，国家就不好治理了。</p>
<p>子产的做法，是有些“脱了裤子再放屁”了。杀了人，就上刑场抵命便是，何必再搞个什么“铸刑书”。而后世更进一步的做法就更脱裤子放屁了：公开审判。明明所有人都知道这个人罪大恶极，不杀不足以平民愤，但等一下，三堂会审，控辩舌战，证据确凿后，然后才可施刑。</p>
<p>法治社会的根基之一就是程序正义了。程序正义不仅可以告诉所有人什么事不能做（法之禁止），还能清楚地告诉你如果做了会有什么后果（刑之依据），再告诉你无论什么人承担的后果是大致相当的（人人平等），更进一步的，判断你做了还是没做这个事是有一整套的程序来梳理论证的，最后，还有一点极为重要，那就是“法无禁止即可为”（对人而言），以及，“法无许可不得为”（对政府而言）。</p>
<p>好像这些道理很多人都明白，很多人也都认为天经地义。但我不得不告诉各位，这个社会，不脱裤子就放屁的事情，随处可见得紧。</p>
<p>有太多的莫名其妙的结果和现象，你都无法知道，是按照哪个程序来的，或者，压根，就没有程序。</p>
<p>这就是法治和人治的本质区别：放屁，脱了裤子，还是不脱裤子？</p>
<hr /><small>Copyleft &copy; 2010 知识共享署名-非商业性使用-禁止演绎 注意：转载勿改标题！<br />ItTalks -- 魏武挥的Blog (digitalfingerprint:fc4f8fc31f70097eea4b780b13146415)<br><br>

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